Well, this is it, my friends: the big showdown chapter. The challenge of writing a recap for “The Grave is No Bar to My Call” is that it is so superbly written. A lot happens in a short space of words, and the narrative is so tight and the descriptions so perfect that I kept finding that my “summaries” were longer than the passages themselves. I did my best not to rely too much on quoting passages from the chapter, but honestly there are so many good ones it was very hard to resist.
Seriously, my hat’s off to Jordan for this one.
Rand joins Mat and Perrin, who are already mounted, and explains to them that Ingtar is sacrificing himself so that they can escape. Privately though, he knows it is not only that. He kicks Red into a flat-out run, trying to escape Ingtar’s triumphant dying cries of “The Light and Shinowa!” But he can feel the weight of Ingtar’s loss, and the weight of his duty towards everyone and everything around him—the Horn, Mat and the dagger, Egwene’s captivity, and Padan Fain’s threat—all weighing down on him. He wishes that there could be only one pressing duty at a time.
When they pause for breath, Rand tells Perrin and Mat that they can help Verin take the Horn to where it needs to go, but that he himself has to go back. Although Perrin and Mat also want to go back for Egwene, Rand insists that they can’t waste any time; the Horn needs to be secured and Matt needs to go to Tar Valon to be separated from the dagger.
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But their argument is forestalled by Perrin noticing an army riding out of Falme.
The wagon yards and horse lots were turning black with Seanchan soldiers, thousands of them rank on rank, with troops of cavalry riding scaled beasts as well as armored men on horses, colorful gonfanons marking the officers. Grolm dotted the ranks, and other strange creatures, almost but not quite like monstrous birds and lizards, and great things like nothing he could describe, with gray, wrinkled skin and huge tusks. At intervals along the lines stood sul’dam and damane by the score. Rand wondered if Egwene were one of them. In the town behind the soldiers, a rooftop still exploded now and again, and lightning still streaked the sky. Two flying beasts, with leathery wings twenty spans tip to tip, soared high overhead, keeping well away from where the bright bolts danced.
“All that for us?” Mat said incredulously. “Who do they think we are?”
An answer came to Rand, but he shoved it away before it had a chance to form completely.
Hurin points out the legion of Whitecloaks coming at them from the other direction. Caught between the two forces, Hurin worries that if either side sees the Horn they will take it; when Perrin points out that they’re going to be caught in the middle of a battle either way, Hurin also worries that either side will kill them out of hand, without even noticing the Horn at all.
But Rand is noticing the Horn at that moment. They all are.
“It has to be there at the Last Battle,” Mat said, licking his lips. “Nothing says it can’t be used before then.” He pulled the Horn free of its lashings and looked at them anxiously. “Nothing says it can’t.”
No one else said anything. Rand did not think he could speak; his own thoughts were too urgent to allow room for speech. Have to go back. Have to go back. The longer he looked at the Horn, the more urgent his thoughts became. Have to. Have to.
Mat’s hand shook as he raised the Horn of Valere to his lips.
He blows a long, clear note, and the sound of the Horn seems to resonate from every direction, even the sky. A fog begins to rise, billowing up to become an encompassing blanket over the land.
Captain Bornhald hears the beautiful sound, “so sweet he wanted to laugh, so mournful he wanted to cry,” that seems to come from everywhere at once, and, not knowing about Rand and his friends, assumes that the Seanchan are trying something sneaky. Despite the fog that is beginning to obscure everything, he orders the legion to break into a trot, and he can hear the horses’ hoof beats increase even though he can’t see the through the fog. Then the ground erupts beside him, showering him with dirt, and he can hear other explosions and the resulting screams of men and horses, though the carnage is hidden by the mist. Bornhald orders the legion to charge and thinks, regretfully, that because of the fog, Byar won’t be able to tell Dain how he died.
Rand could not see the trees around them any longer. Mat had lowered the Horn, eyes wide with awe, but the sound of it still rang in Rand’s ears. The fog hid everything in rolling waves as white as the finest bleached wool, yet Rand could see. He could see, but it was mad. Falme floated somewhere beneath him, its landward border black with the Seanchan ranks, lightning ripping its streets. Falme hung over his head. There Whitecloaks charged and died as the earth opened in fire beneath their horses’ hooves. There men ran about the decks of tall, square ships in the harbor, and on one ship, a familiar ship, fearful men waited. He could even recognize the face of the captain. Bayle Domon. He clutched his head with both hands. The trees were hidden, but he could still see each of the others clearly. Hurin anxious. Mat muttering, fearful. Perrin looking as if he knew this was meant to be. The fog roiled up all around them.
Hurin is the first to notice the coming of the Heroes, but he doesn’t need to point them out. They appear, riding down the billows of fog as though coming down hills, and as they come closer, Rand realizes that he recognizes every man and women among them. He knows them from more than the stories, too; every face Rand looks at, he somehow knows a hundred names for. And at their head rides Artur Hawkwing himself.
As they come to a halt before the three boys, Mat asks if this number, less than a hundred in total, is all of them. Artur Hawkwing answers that it takes more than just bravery to bind someone to the Horn. Looking to Rand, he adds that “Only a few are bound to the Wheel, spun out again and again to work the will of the Wheel in the Pattern of the Ages. You could tell him, Lews Therin, could you but remember when you wore flesh.”
Rand shakes his head at that but knows he doesn’t have time to waste arguing. He explains the situation to the Heroes, how the Seanchan must be driven back into the sea and how Egwene must be freed. He’s surprised when the Heroes find the mention of Egwene amusing, and the archer Birgitte tells him that he always chooses women who give him trouble. This time Rand does correct her for calling him Lews Therin, and tells them impatiently that they don’t have a lot of time.
Birgitte replies that they have all the time, but the Heroes ready themselves nevertheless.
Justice shone like a mirror in Artur Hawkwing’s gauntleted fist. “I have fought by your side times beyond number, Lews Therin, and faced you as many more. The Wheel spins us out for its purposes, not ours, to serve the Pattern. I know you, if you do not know yourself. We will drive these invaders out for you.” His warhorse pranced, and he looked around, frowning. “Something is wrong here. Something holds me.” Suddenly he turned his sharp-eyed gaze on Rand. “You are here. Have you the banner?” A murmur ran through those behind him.
“Yes.” Rand tore open the straps of his saddlebags and pulled out the Dragon’s banner. It filled his hands and hung almost to his stallion’s knees. The murmur among the heroes rose.
“The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters,” Artur Hawkwing said. “You are here. The banner is here. The weave of this moment is set. We have come to the Horn, but we must follow the banner. And the Dragon.” Hurin made a faint sound as if his throat had seized.
“Burn me,” Mat breathed. “It’s true. Burn me!”
Perrin swings down off of his horse and runs off into the mist—they can hear him chopping and after a moment he returns with with a pole made from a sapling tree. He takes the banner from Rand and secures it to his makeshift pole. The banner unrolls and the dragon ripples in a breeze that seems to exist only for it.
Rand offers Hurin the chance to stay behind, but the sniffer is determined to see things through, after staying this long with Rand, and Artur Hawkwing tells him that perhaps he will also someday be one of the Heroes of the Horn, as the Wheel does sometimes add to their number. Then Hawkwing asks “Lord Rand” for permission to advance, calling also to Mat, whom he refers to as “trumpeter” and to Perrin, whom he calls “bannerman.”
As they swing forward, Rand feels as though all the time they spent talking, all the time the Heroes had been answering the call, had been frozen, and only now as they begin to charge is it returning to its normal flow. Mat sounds the Horn into the fog, the horses pick up speed, and Rand wonders even as he charges if he knows where they are going. The fog keeps thickening until he can only see Hurin, Mat and Perrin clearly.
… Hurin crouched low in his saddle, wide-eyed, urging his horse on. Mat sounding the Horn, and laughing between. Perrin, his yellow eyes glowing, the Dragon’s banner streaming behind him. Then they were gone, too, and Rand rode on alone, as it seemed.
In a way, he could still see them, but now it was the way he could see Falme, and the Seanchan. He could not tell where they were, or where he was. He tightened his grip on his sword, peered into the mists ahead. He charged alone through the fog, and somehow he knew that was how it was meant to be.
Suddenly Ba’alzamon was before him in the mists, throwing his arms wide.
Red rears and throws Rand from the saddle, but Rand is surprised that the landing is gentle, almost as though he landed on nothing at all. Together, he and Ba’alzamon stand alone in the rolling fog, and Rand can see that it isn’t the mist that is dark behind Ba’alzamon, but rather that there is blackness that excludes the fog altogether. But despite being alone, Rand is still aware of the others, of the heroes colliding with the Seanchan, of Perrin keeping the banner aloft and defending it with his axe, of Mat sounding the Horn and Hurin fighting on foot. He is aware of the Seanchan falling back from the onslaught.
Rand has no choice but to assume the void and touch the True Source; as he goes to meet Ba’alzamon he knows that any chance he might have would be with the One Power. He demands that Ba’alzamon get out of his way, but Ba’alzamon taunts him over his interest in “the girl” and over his refusal to acknowledge who he is, despite even the heroes telling him the truth. Rand can’t think of a reason they would have lied to him, and although he’s desperate not to be the Dragon Reborn, he tries to focus instead on the battles, both the one he is fighting and the one that he can see in his mind’s eye.
“You pitiful wretch. You have sounded the Horn of Valere. You are linked to it, now. Do you think the worms of the White Tower will ever release you, now? They will put chains around your neck so heavy you will never cut them.”
Rand was so surprised he felt it inside the void. He doesn’t know everything. He doesn’t know! He was sure it must show on his face. To cover it, he rushed at Ba’alzamon. Hummingbird Kisses the Honeyrose. The Moon on the Water. The Swallow Rides the Air. Lightning arched between sword and staff. Coruscating glitter showered the fog. Yet Ba’alzamon fell back, his eyes blazing in furious furnaces.
As he attacks, Rand can see that the Seanchan are falling back. But Ba’alzamon keeps up his own attack, along with the now-familiar refrain of how Rand is killing himself trying to wield the One Power, how in the whole world, only Ba’alzamon can teach him to use it. Rand is desperate to hold him long enough for Hawkwing and the others to finish their battle, but as he is driven back by Ba’alzamon’s blows, he sees the heroes fall back as well. Then he rallies, and they surge forth again, diving the Seanchan through the streets of Falme.
Elated, Rand realizes that the pattern of the large battle is following that of his against Ba’alzamon. When Rand advances, the heroes of the Horn do as well, when he falls back, the Seanchan rally again. Ba’alzamon tells him that “they” cannot save him, that the only one who might have been able to will be carried off across the Aryth Ocean, and if ever sees them again they will be slaves, drawing Rand’s mind back to Egwene. But despite Ba’alzamon’s continued insistence that Rand is doomed, despite the memory of hearing that voice say over and over “I have won again, Lews Therin,” Rand doesn’t give in.
But he does notice that Ba’alzamon is wary of his sword, even though mere steel could never hurt the Dark One. In the void Rand is one with the sword, aware of every particle of it, aware of the One Power traveling from his own arm and down its length.
It was another voice he heard then. Lan’s voice. There will come a time when you want something more than you want life. Ingtar’s voice. It is every man’s right to choose when to Sheathe the Sword. The picture formed of Egwene, collared, living her life as a damane. Threads of my life in danger. Egwene. If Hawkwing gets into Falme, he can save her. Before he knew it, he had taken the first position of Heron Wading in the Rushes, balanced on one foot, sword raised high, open and defenseless. Death is lighter than a feather, duty heavier than a mountain.
Ba’alzamon stared at him. “Why are you grinning like an idiot, fool? Do you not know I can destroy you utterly?”
Rand felt a calmness beyond that of the void. “I will never serve you, Father of Lies. In a thousand lives, I never have. I know that. I’m sure of it. Come. It is time to die.”
Ba’alzamon’s eyes widen in surprise, and the darkness behind him roils up as his expressions hardens and he shouts “Then die, worm!” as he thrusts his staff at Rand like a spear. Rand takes the blow in his side, but manages in the last moment to drive his sword through Ba’alzamon’s heart. Ba’alazamon screams and the world explodes in fire.
Now, the “Sheathing the Sword” move has been the Chekov’s gun of The Great Hunt since Lan first introduced the concept, and we knew we were getting close to it when Ingtar was dismissive of Rand practicing Heron Wading in the Rushes in Chapter 44.
“You will put your sword in the other man with that, if you’re quick, but not before he has his through your ribs. You are practically inviting him. I don’t think I could see a man face me so open and not put my sword in him, even knowing he might strike home at me if I did.”
Before his death, Ingtar learned something very special from Rand about living one’s life for the right reasons and how good deeds and glorious ones are not always the same thing. But Rand has learned many things from Ingtar, besides this last lesson about the weight of duty and the relative ease of death. Rand clearly remembered this conversation in his last critical moments facing Ba’alzamon.
I was really moved by the way Ingtar’s death affected Rand, both emotionally and in how it guided his actions going forward. I was a bit disappointed with how it shook out in the previous chapter because it felt like Ingtar was just giving up rather than continuing to face the hard choices, but it wasn’t really addressed. Now I can see the arc of that decision more clearly; through Rand I understand and empathize with Ingtar’s choice even more, and from a technical standpoint I can see a theme developing that I think will carry through the entire arc of Rand’s life. When Rand chooses to Sheathe the Sword, he is making a sacrifice in order to reach a goal more important to him than his own life—the defeat of the Seanchan and salvation of Egwene—the way Lan taught him. But Rand is also acknowledging that death is a lighter burden than the duty the Dragon Reborn carries, and while I don’t think he wants to die, I do think he may be experiencing a little of the same relief Ingtar felt when he made the decision to sacrifice himself. I’ve never quite believed Ba’alzamon when he claimed that he could control Rand after he’s dead, and I don’t think Rand believes it, either. Thus, the death Rand expects will also be a release from the incredible burden of his duty and destiny as the Dragon Reborn.
He thinks, anyway.
Ingtar is also the first person Rand has ever lost, now that he knows Thom survived the Myrddraal, and there is the added tragedy that Ingtar was previously lost to the Shadow. Rand has faced the Dark One’s agents for so long that the threat from Trollocs and Darkfriends has become almost normal for him, but the threat of good people, good friends, being seduced by the Dark is another experience altogether. And this won’t be the last time either, I’m sure.
The interesting thing about having Artur Hawkwing as the leader of the heroes of the Horn is that we have almost Inception levels of King Arthur parallels. Rand himself is already a religious-style savior who returns to the land at its hour of greatest need, and we see Jordan play into this by giving people close to him Arthurian-sounding names as well, with Egwene al’Vere sounding like Guinevere (and Elayne sounding similar too, plus having brothers named Gawyn and Galad) and Thom Merrilin sounding rather like Merlin. But it is the character of Artur Paendrag Tanreall (Paendrag sounding very much like Pendragon) who is most closely modeled after Arthurian legend: He unified all the lands, then died tragically and ruined what he had accomplished because he was unfairly angry with a bunch of women. So we have, in effect, a King Arthur character being called to return to save the land by a messianic figure that is also dressed in some King Arthur details.
I am still a little confused as to who understands what about how the Horn works. Does Mat know that he will be able to use the Horn to call the heroes again, or does he literally believe that it’s enough for the Horn to be at the Last Battle, and that nothing says it actually has to be useable at that time. Does he know that he’s tied himself to the Horn now, and will be the only one who can wield it for the rest of his life? I guess probably not, even after Artur Hawkwing called him “trumpeter,” which really is just in character for a man who is very much an “act now, think later” kind of guy.
But Perrin has tied himself to Rand now too, and I suspect that the designation of “bannerman” will continue to have an effect on his life just as being the wielder of the Horn will on Mat. But then, they are both ta’veren in their own right, so it makes sense that these seemingly small actions would have a far-reaching effect. And Perrin seems to have resigned himself to the notion that you can’t fight your fate—his own struggle with destiny has probably made it easier for him to adjust to Rand having one as well. He is still our Perrin, who thinks everything through and takes his time with it. I suspect he just did all that thinking before now. And now, he is ready to act.
Rand himself is also resisting less and less: He ignores being called Lews Therin in favor of getting things done, and he’s increasingly willing to embrace the True Source when he must. I really thought that, when Artur Hawkwing said something was holding him, it was going to be that Rand had not yet “declared himself,” that Rand would literally have to say the words “I am the Dragon Reborn.” I guess riding under the Dragon banner is basically the same thing, but it does leave a little bit of wiggle room. Still, Rand has moved from thinking that it is impossible for him to be the Dragon to just thinking that he doesn’t want to be, and that is a pretty big step.
As is facing Ba’alzamon again. I guess this is just Ba’alzamon’s thing, creating little pocket-spaces in the sky for him and Rand to have show-downs in? I guess it’s not anymore flashy than any of the other things that Ba’alzamon does.
But the thing is, a lot of what Ba’alzamon does doesn’t make a lot of sense, given what we supposedly know about the Dark One. For example, the seals are not all broken yet (as far as we know), so how is Ba’alzamon getting out here to bother Rand all the time? It’s clear enough that the humanoid entity can’t possibly be the entirety of the Dark One—in The Eye of the World I assumed that Ba’alzamon was just a projection made of the Dark One’s power, while through most of The Great Hunt I’ve been wondering if maybe the Dark One figured out how to create or posses a human body somehow. In other words, his body is still trapped but his mind has found a way to wiggle free.
Back in the Prologue, the man who called himself Bors thought it was odd that Ba’alzamon would appear to them the way he did—he thought perhaps it was one of the Forsaken, then went on to question if even one of the Forsaken would appear so before them, with the visible burns and the red mask that hid his face. And while the Dark One may be both immortal and supernaturally powerful, whatever this humanoid figure is, it is subject to physical rules. After being injured by Rand at the end of The Eye of the World, Ba’alzamon had to heal normally, even though it was at a rate accelerated by his power. And now, again, he seems to fear Rand’s sword as though mere steel could (and eventually does) harm him. Not only that, but he’s making mistakes such as thinking Rand blew the Horn instead of Mat.
For that matter, how is it that Ba’alzamon can teach Rand to channel? The Dark One must have practically infinite knowledge, but does he himself wield the One Power the same way a human might? It seems like his connection to the True Source would have to be remarkably different than that of a mortal person, and even though the Dark One is called a “he,” I doubt he’s actually gendered in a traditional way. Still, he must be able to teach Rand somehow; sure he might lie about it just to get Rand to surrender to him, but if Rand did join him, no doubt Ba’alzamon would want his new servant to be operating at his full potential. Perhaps there’s some way to force the issue, like how the a’dam helps Egwene access her abilities in a different way than the Aes Sedai training does.
Then again, there is one more possibility, and that is that this person who calls himself Ba’alzamon really isn’t the Dark One, but a very powerful channeler impersonating him for some reason. Which seems like a really dangerous and stupid thing to do, but that could be in character for a powerful and power-hungry Darkfriend. Would any of the Forsaken dare to do such a thing, if they escaped out of their prison like Aginor and Balthamel did? Someone who was such a powerful channeler that they could give themselves the illusion of having a furnace for a mouth, and invade people’s dreams, and wield amounts of saidin that would seem to a person born in this Age to be impossible for any human being to control? It would explain the physical frailties, and perhaps also make more sense of his obsession with Rand, if this person viewed them as two equals on opposites sides of a war.
Someone like Elan Morin Tedronai, named by men “The Betrayer of Hope” even as men named Lews Therin Telamon “The Dragon Reborn,” back in the Prologue of The Eye of the World. That man spoke to Lews Therin very similarly to the way Ba’alzamon talks to Rand.
Lews Therin raised his head, and the black-clad man took an involuntary step back from that gaze. “Ten years, Betrayer,” Lews Therin said softly, the soft sound of steel being bared. “Ten years your foul master has wracked the world. And now this. I will…”
“Ten years! You pitiful fool! This war has not lasted ten years, but since the beginning of time. You and I have fought a thousand battles with the turning of the Wheel, a thousand times a thousand, and we will fight until time dies and the Shadow is triumphant!” He finished in a shout, with a raised fist, and it was Lews Therin’s turn to pull back, breath catching at the glow in the Betrayer’s eyes.
I wonder if that glow is supposed to be metaphorical or literal, like the first hint of flames in a furnace. And I do know by now that Jordan doesn’t let these threads drop; sooner or later that character has to come back, and what a trick if all this time it wasn’t even the real Ba’alzamon at all. I wonder if the clue doesn’t lie in the blackness that is always described as being behind him, a blackness that seems more entity than shadow, that responds with emotion at times and always seems to be coming for you.
I’m nowhere near certain that I’m right in these musings, but I can’t find much of a flaw in the theory. Either way, there are so many questions that have not yet been answered about the man who calls himself Ba’alzamon. How does he know that Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve are the ones who could possibly save Rand? Has he seen it, in a prophecy or perhaps by interacting with the Pattern directly somehow? Or is he just making the assumption because the three women are such powerful channelers? Rand seems to have a sense of how events are endangering his own future, how Egwene is very important to that future, which I just sort of assumed was due to his connection to the Wheel as a reincarnated figure, but I don’t know how Ba’alzamon could know this, unless maybe he has Min’s power and has been spying on them all from time-to-time to do readings and see if they’re important to Rand’s success as the Dragon.
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And finally, just how much is what Ba’alzamon says just a straight-up lie? I’ve realized that I’ve actually been at least half-believing everything he says since the one thing that he and Rand have argued the most about is whether or not Rand is the Dragon, which the reader knows is a truth. But maybe Ba’alzamon, Dark One or not, can’t actually touch Rand if he dies. Even if he manages to kill Rand, the Dragon will just be reincarnated again, and the cycle of opposing the Shadow will continue. This is clearly what Rand has decided, and I thought it was absolutely chilling that he found such a positive message in the horrible lives he lived while caught by the Portal Stone. He may have died in agony more times than he can count, he may have lost everything, but he never did say yes to Ba’alzamon’s offer. And it makes me wonder if he ever has, in any of his previous incarnations. Ba’alzamon claimed that he did. But as Rand is constantly reminding us, this is the Father of Lies, or, at the very least, someone impersonating him.
The next post will be the last for The Great Hunt; the climax is over and all that remains is to see what has become of everyone and set them all out on the next stage of their journey. Stay tuned for Chapters 48-50, and in the meantime, enjoy my bonus thoughts.
- In his last moments, Ingtar’s battle cry is not for Fal Dara or Shienar, but for himself. The Light, and Shinowa. He dies for himself and to walk again in the Light.
- I learned a new word today. Gonfanon: the flag beneath the head of a knight’s lance.
- Rand sees the Seanchan riding wrinkly gray animals with tusks. Those are Oliphants, aren’t they Jordan. Just admit it.
- Hawkwing’s sword is actually just called Justice. I suppose subtlety is overrated.
- Hawkwing tells “Lews Therin that he could tell his friends about being bound to the Wheel, if he “could remember when [he] wore flesh.” I get where he’s going with this—he means, if you could remember your past life as Lews Therin—but Rand’s wearing flesh now. He’s not dead. It’s just a really weird sentence. If I had been Jordan’s editor I would have had him change it.
- Hurin is so precious when Hawkwing suggests that he might become one of their number some day. I love him so much. I think this moment also illustrates what kind of leader Artur Hawkwing was in life; we know that the common people really loved him, and that seems to bear out here.
- So being a ta’veren really is is pretty powerful indeed, if someone of Rand’s caliber can affect an entire battle.
- I love that in the midst of all this drama and “seeing” things with some kind of power, Rand still notices and recognizes Bayle Domon.
Sylas K Barrett loves that there are women among the heroes of the Horn. More of that, please.
Blood and ashes, I’d forgotten how much of a punch this bit packed. It’s been so long since I’ve read it.
//Perrin and banners. Yep, might have an effect or two. Bwahaha. Fortunately, Mat gets balefired out of being the Sounder of the Horn.
Hey Ishy, you aren’t subtle and your tells are showing!//
This is indeed such a gorgeous chapter. One of the highlights of the entire series for me. Thanks for doing it justice, Sylas! As always, much enjoy reading your musings and analysis.
All good questions, Sylas. I will leave it at that.
Excellent recap. If I may suggest, I think it would be nice to have you do a wrap-up post, or topical post, after next week’s post. There’s still enough for you to react to in those last three chapters that I’m not sure there will be space for a thorough wrap up of the whole book.
It would also allow you to go back through the first two books and put some pieces together in one place for some of the ongoing mysteries you have been wondering about. I enjoyed when you took a week off reading new material in the middle of the Eye of the World to circle back to your thoughts on the Prolouge, and what it could mean. Looking at some of the beginning of this book, and even the end of the last book, now that you have more information, might be a fun post.
Its so difficult not to spoiler.
Excellent insights and a great re-read!
The big question is, // can we post Isam’s Summary for TGH after the last post for this book? //
Nice work Sylas! The Great Hunt is definitely in my top 5 books of the Wheel of Time… Thanks for reminding me that this chapter was pure Magic!
@1 // I thought that Mat lost the connection after dying on the tree after Rhuidean// I could be wrong. I’ve never read the Companion for Cannon.
“I will never serve you, Father of Lies. In a thousand lives, I never have. I know that. I’m sure of it. Come. It is time to die.”
My favorite quote in the entire series, and one of the most chills-inducing.
Sylas, your theories are very well presented.
@7 //I’m pretty sure it was his little mis-adventure with lightning in Caemlyn that Rand undid with Callandor fueled balefire. He was only mostly dead after Rhuidean.//
Another good read/post, Sylas. First, a typo I noticed:
“If I had been Jordan’s editor I would have had him chance it.” – should be change, not chance? Ironic to have a typo on a line talking about editing.
I don’t think it’s a spoiler to tell you that the Seanchan were using elephants, yes. They call them s’redit and they, too have special handlers. I won’t go deeper than that.
Speaking of the Seanchan, I wanted to ask your (and other people’s) thoughts about their “funny” accent – a slightly slurred, slow drawl. The way Jordan describes it, I feel as if he’s attempting to describe a really thick southern accent. Does anyone else feel that way? It makes it tough for me because as someone from the upper midwest of the US, I associate that accent with a few stereotypes (cowboy, redneck, southern belle) – NONE of which jibe with Seanchan culture. So it’s always a little weird for me. Anyone else?
Also, if that IS how it was intended, I wonder if the WoT series (assuming it makes it far enough to introduce a Seanchan character) will use a southern accent for Seanchan or if it will get changed to a “generic-evil roughly british” accent, as Hollywood is wont to do?
@7 – You don’t have to look at the Companion. It’s verified in-text. //In A Memory of Light, when the Heroes are called again, they explain that Mat’s tie to the Horn was severed by the balefire incident, something he doesn’t even remember.//
@10 – No need to wonder. Robert Jordan himself said it was based on a Texas drawl.
@10 – Fixed, thanks!
@10:
What @12 said. This is part and parcel with what Jordan did in the whole series. He has Cairheinin culture dressing somewhat asian, with french flavorings, and Spanish/Mediterranean skin and hair coloring. He mashes a bunch of Asian culture in the Borderlands, but their speech patterns aren’t asian at all. Same with the Seanchan. He has Oriental flavorings to the Seanchan, but a West Texas drawl, and Roman-esque history. And some stuff that is pure Wheel of Time. Nothing in this series is a one-to-one parallel. Not in the characters or the world building.
Thank you again for your impressions and great analysis Sylas. As promised last chapter, I have some thoughts I really would love to discuss about this chapter in particular. I would love your input as well Sylas, so I will attempt to leave as much of this un-spoilered as possible; to whit, I will divide my post into two sections, the first are my general thoughts about this chapter, and the second, my personal theories/responses to my own thoughts (which are rife with spoilers). Another point of order, I am an avid reader of Wheel of Time, I believe i have read it through at least three times, but I am not well versed in the surrounding culture, so it is quite likely that there is a good amount of community discussion on this point already and I hope that those of you who are more veteran will forgive my retreading the points.
I want to start off (and I know this is always a good way to leave a hanging “but”) by saying that I adore this chapter, it is one of my favorite climaxes in the series. The narration is tight and the pacing is just about perfect, as you said. All of that being said, I find this section to be very tonally inconsistent with the rest of the series. To borrow from Brandon Sanderson’s taxonomy, Wheel of Time falls well inside the bounds of Hard Fantasy. While many things in the series are supernatural in nature, very few things are inexplicable in nature – even // the `fin // follow well established rules. And that segment is considered one of the most eldritch-esque parts of the series. In this chapter, I find myself reaching for explanations – even after finishing the series several times. In the spoiler section, I will cover some possibilities, but frankly their all kind of a stretch.
I have considered calling out a few examples here, but I think I will ere on the side of safety and avoid potential… spoiler by negation? I think in part the “looseness” of the interpretations can be chalked up to Robert Jordan being human, and this was still early in the series. I’m sure a large part of the world was still filled with inky outlines at this stage even in his mind, so some of the pieces here don’t quite fit – especially because it is a scene so filled with set pieces. It just always struck me that out of all of the series, this was the scene that I most felt Robert Jordan gives a metaphorical shrug and says “The pattern or something did it”.
// Now that we’re alone, I can call out some specific points that always stuck out to me. Most notably, the Horn itself functions in a way that kind of lacks explanation. How does the Horn cause time to pause and Rand and co. appear to be everywhere at once? How did Rand and Ba’alzamon end up in the sky over Falme? For these two questions, my interpretation is that – given that the Heros live in the World of Dreams – the Horn must open a bridge of some kind between the WoD and Randland. Rand therefore exists in a quasi-state between being in the metaphorical WoD and the real world. But if that’s the case…. How the hell did Ishamael end – literally – up there? He’s very powerful, but still functionally just a normal channeler.
Which brings me to part two: Given Ishamael’s *spoiler* mortal *spoiler* status, how did he give Rand a wound that cannot be healed? If it’s some trick of the Age of Legends, why don’t all of the Forsaken use it? The only answer I can come up with is that maybe it was the True Power? Which seems like kind of a cop-out answer, since we don’t see any of the other effects of the True Power in Ishamael at this point, like the saa.
Which brings me to part three: Given Ishamael’s *spoiler* mortal *spoiler* status, how did getting stabbed by Rand’s unbreakable Powerwrought sword melt the sword to the hilt? Maybe he used the power of the WoD? But Ishamael is never mentioned as being particularly skilled in the WoD.
I had a part four, namely that the whole “army fighting at the same pace as Rand” thing doesn’t make a lot of sense with the rules of the world, but I think Sylas’ explanation of it being an effect of ta’veren is as good as any. //
Regarding Ingtar: I believe Shinova is Ingtar’s House. So, he dies for the honour of the House, not for himself.
@15 // Ismael is at least moderately skilled at WoD stuff. Everything that happens in the dreams in book 1 shows his ability off. As far as the wound goes, I assume his weapon has properties similar to a Myddral’s blade. //
@15 Good questions but I feel like it’s not hard to back fit the later lore into this scene.
//The Forsaken know how to enter WoD in the flesh, so he just made a modified gateway.
The True Power seems like a reasonable answer. Given the fiery eyes, we wouldn’t see the saa regardless.
The sword melted because Rand hand channeled a whole bunch of the Source into it and released it when he skewered Ishy. //
Whether or not RJ knew all this when he wrote the scene is another question.
@15, @17 // I assume the wound is True Power related as after Rand is slashed by Fain with his dagger, the respective evils of the two wounds fight against one another. //
@15, @17, @19 //My thought was that Ishmael hit Rand with a physical manifestation of the taint. That’s why the dagger wound fighting against the tainted wound gives Rand the idea of using the Shadar Logoth to cleanse the Source.//
@1, @11 //I love the panic of trying to get the horn back to Mat in AMOL, because everybody thinks that he’s still linked to it. And then Olver gets his moment of glory.//
Anyone else get chills over Artur’s discussion with Ingtar? I remember that being discussed in Leah’s reread. When Artur Hawkwing tells you “sometimes we add people to our ranks, and you’re pretty brave” is there anything that could pull you away at that point?
Very insightful as always! Love this chapter. I do have a hard time visualizing the Whitecloaks’ part in the battle. Did they miss our heroes in the mist and charge into the Seanchan? Did the heroes of the horn fight them? Were they all dead before the heroes even engaged the enemy?
I’m amused that Artur Hawkwing leads a counterattack to drive back Artur Hawkwing’s returning armies.
I’m really enjoying your questions about Ba’alzamon. Beyond that I can only say read and find out.
@22:
As a Christian, it always reminded me of the old question, “Would you recognize Jesus if he were in front of you, and would He recognize the Church as something he built?”
The answer is probably no.
Interesting recap and analysis, I can’t really comment without spoilers on most things. Just this quote:
This is a little bit tricky to parse at first, but makes sense after you see it. Hawking is making note that Rand (and consequently, the other heroes of the Horn) loose their memories of their past lives when they a spun out by the Wheel and ‘ware flesh,’ as it were. He is just making an observation on Rand’s current state, that he could tell the others himself, but that knowledge is veiled from him now.
@15
// Ishmael is a powerful Dreamer, as we see by his abilities throughout the series. Also, we have never seen him use Saidin throughout the series. Not once. He is a True Power Exclusive user; and as for the Saa: What do you think the Flaming chasm of eyes and mouth is, if not an advanced form of the Saa? Not to mention the madness? There is nothing unusual about the Wound on Rand’s side, when you realize that it is True Power related. //
I could summarize this chapter concisely. Ingtar dies. Mat sounds the Horn, summoning the Heroes. Rand sends them all to fight the Seanchan and save Egwene. The Whitecloaks are caught in an explosion. Ba’alzamon shows up; he and Rand stab each other. The end. :-p
///Ishy says he alone can teach Rand to channel saidin. Is he lying, or does he not know that other male Forsaken are at large?///
///Sylas thinks Ba’alzamon is the Dark One’s name, which might not really belong to this “humanoid.” Actually, it’s the humanoid’s Trolloc-given title (given while he was running the Trolloc Wars?) and doesn’t actually belong to the Dark One.///
///Nah, they’re not Oliphants. They’re “boar-horses.” :-p ///
@25:
// Yeah, Sylas references the Prolouge of EotW but missed the most important part; it takes place after the Forsaken were Sealed at Shayol Ghul, so how is Ishamael walking around in Lews Therin’s palace?
“I was NEVER bound, Lews Therin!”
It’s all right there in the Prolouge. //
My gall is no car to the brave. Just saying. No call to the bar is my grave either.
@26 – //Wasn’t it later revealed that Ishy was bungie-corded to the Bore and was temporarily set free throughout the 3,000 years?//
@25… When you summarize it like that…. that hurts…
Ordinarily, Sylas, your analysis is so spot on it’s uncanny, but one line in there, is just so, so wrong, it… blows my mind. //“Perrin seems to have resigned himself to the notion that you can’t fight your fate.” I think you’re about ten books too early for that assessment.//
Also, while there might be some parallels to Arthur, Rand in this sequence — where the Seanchan fall back when he’s defeating Ba’alzamon, and regroup when he’s on the defensive — is much more reminiscent of the Fisher King. //That is absolutely the closer parallel as the series wears on, along with Tyr and Jesus.//
@15: //The flaming eyes / mouth Ishamael has here is the final manifestation of saa. That’s what you look like if you use the True Power as long and as much as Ishamael did. As to the actual mechanics of how the battle happened, I think it’s fair enough to just chalk it up to the fact that Jordan didn’t 100% have the rules of his universe down at the beginning of the series. There are a few things in the Eye of the World that take some handwaving to explain later (such as Moiraine walking over the walls of Baerlon, which, illusion or whatever, but doesn’t really make sense; or why Aginor would possibly have any use for the Eye of the World, or how it possibly could have made him grow younger). I think the “battle in the sky” bits are just kind of Jordan not really having stuff together yet, something that he largely works out all of the kinks of by The Shadow Rising. The last time I seem to recall Jordan making a mistake of this kind was by having Rand seem WAY more insane than he actually was in The Dragon Reborn, when he hadn’t quite figured out the pacing of Rand’s madness. There’s also a single mistake of a missed prophecy that Sanderson made later regarding Carlinya, but that’s another matter.//
Something to keep an eye out for in next week’s post, which is truly my biggest continuity-error gripe of the entire series — //next week’s section includes the only possible time in the entire series where Mat and Min could have met each other before Tarmon Gaidon. It certainly doesn’t happen onscreen, but Mat and Min were only ever in the same place at the same time before the last battle twice — once in Baerlon in The Eye of the World, and once in Falme right now. In Baerlon, there was no offscreen time where the two could have spoken to each other, and they don’t have any conversation onscreen. It’s made very clear that Verin leaves with Mat, Nynaeve, Egwene, and Hurin immediately after the battle at Falme, since they have to get Mat healed in Tar Valon ASAP. This absolutely drives me insane, because in A Memory of Light, they talk like old friends who know each other well. But they literally never meet onscreen, and at most could have only spent a couple of hours in one place, however long it took for Verin to get the provisions to leave for Tar Valon after everybody meets up. I think that Sanderson just didn’t realize that those two characters had never interacted before when he wrote the first scene where they meet in the Seanchan messenger tent in A Memory of Light, which is kind of nuts to me, since they’re basically the only two major characters who never interact with each other onscreen.//
@austin
Yes. But the mechanism, or timeframe, wasn’t my point.
@30:
You’re right, of course, and others have mentioned it before. But // Mat and Min could have spoken off screen in Baerlon as well as here. Even if only for a few hours. And both of them are pretty good with people, so it’s possible they are just chatty with each other. Some people just instantly “get” each other. //
But it’s more likely an error, as you say. It’s hardly the worst one, however.
Oh, and one thing I forgot, of course. //Hope everybody enjoyed seeing Mat, Perrin, and Rand onscreen together in this chapter, since it never happens again in the entire series.//
@30 JimIII The part that drives you nuts bothers me as well. Bothered me when I read it – I had to stop and think “Wait…” and then after I finished the series, I went searching and as far as I can tell you’re right. They never met. My only possible resolution to it involves him *maybe* knowing her – or who she is, at least – from the you-know-what visions he had. But she wouldn’t know the same, so only from hearing about him from others.
Neither of which would enable them to have the conversation like they did. I’m pretty sure you’re right – authorial gaffe.
It’s a correct counterfactual conditional clause. English does still have some inflections left, even if native speakers no longer know about them.
@33 – Now that’s just criminal. Bad planning on RJ and Brandon’s part.
For what it’s worth, I always took Hawking to mean the last time Rand wore flesh (I wonder if the Dragon waits with the other Heroes?).
@18, @19, @24, @30: These are all good points. I think these are pretty good explanations of the individual phenomenon, but truthfully I think the thing that unsettles me about the battle is more along the lines that @30 brought up, which is the mechanics of the battle itself feel off somehow, like how you would feel if you threw Lord of the Rings wizards into the Wheel of Time setting. They both are have “magic”, but there’s just something unusually hand-wavy about the stuff happening in these chapters.
All of that aside, I’m glad I brought it up, because there are some really good rationalizations in here that do help me put together some of the pieces that I always felt didn’t quite fit.
@28: That’s a fun visual.
@37: Marking this as spoilers even though it might not be, // This QA with RJ clearly states that Rand’s soul does party with those of Other Heroes in the World of Dreams. //
Moderators: Minor formatting issue. The paragraph that starts “He blows a long, clear note…” should not be indented as a block quote; the direct quote from the book ends in the previous paragraph and that paragraph is Sylas’s.
@41 – Fixed, thanks!
@28 Yes you are right // cause in the series it was mentioned that when the Dark One tells Rand of all the things he did i.e. the Trollocs War and etc. it was actually Ishmael. You find out later that yes he was bound in a way (being the closest to the surface) but was only so that every so often he would be release for a short time to shape events and to start certain things like meeting Liandrin and the other Black Ajah in the White Tower. I know there are a few other instances of his handiwork but I cant bring them to mind unfortunately. //
@43 – He was also the one //who poisoned Hawking against the Aes Sedai and sent the Seanchen across the ocean.//
Sylas, I just love Tuesdays for gleefully following along with your WoT adventure!
@15 and others
//As everyone has noted, the fire-eyes are clearly the advanced/ultimate stage of the saa, but that’s not the only evidence of Ishamael using the True Power exclusively. Whenever you see Ishamael with a black aura around him, that’s from the TP. When he Travels in the Prologue of tEotW and instead of going through a gateway he just shimmers into existence… that’s Traveling with the TP.
In fact about 98% percent of the weirdness you see around Ishamael in the first three books can be explained by two things: the True Power, and dreamshards. That damn room with the fireplace and the archways and the striated Shayol Ghul sky is Ishamael’s favorite dreamshard. He liked to pull Rand and Mat and Perrin into it to flaunt his Evilness, and that includes the confrontation with Rand at the end of Eye of the World after Rand traveled to Tarwin’s Gap and trashed the Trolloc army there.
The Falme Battle In the Sky was probably not a dreamshard though, as stylistically it is very different from the other confrontations, and it was structured to serve Rand’s and the Light’s interests, not Ishamael’s. Projecting the battle across the sky not just above Falme, but elsewhere too… simultaneously proclaiming the Dragon everywhere. At that same moment in Saldaea, Mazrim Taim was distracted by the Battle in the Sky and fell off his horse and was captured by the Aes Sedai. Handwavy though it may be, for whatever it’s worth, RJ said in interviews that what happened here was a “Pattern Level Event.” I.e. The Wheel took a hand and made happen what needed to happen. As for mechanics, the Horn creating a similarity between Falme and Tel’aran’rhiod is as good an explanation as any.
Re: Ishamael’s obvious madness, it’s unclear whether it was the TP usage or the fact that he has been partly unsealed from the Bore, and then dragged back into the Bore periodically (love the bungee analogy @28!) that caused the madness. The Big Book of Bad Art put forth a theory that Ishamael was not drawn into the Bore for some 40 years after the Bore was sealed, but then 1000 years later was spun out again for 40 years (during which time he instigated the Trolloc Wars). Then he was caught back in the sealing again for another 1000 years before he woke up again in time to mess with Artur Hawkwing and direct him to send his armies over the ocean… 40 years later he was caught in the sealing again. And finally 1000 years later, around the 980s of the New Era, he was released a final time, in time to take control of the Black Ajah and punish Jarna Malari for flexing her power too broadly by having Reds kill potential male channelers.
But several of the Forsaken state that Ishamael was “more than half mad and less than half human” when they awoke from the Bore, and even more than their implication that he was already a little nutty to begin with. He may on some level think that he IS actually an avatar of the Dark One at this point. Sylas has picked up on so much, I am really pleased to see he is onto this scent. I didn’t quite get there on my first read. It took another friend who had read the series before me to point out around this time that the clues that Ishamael wasn’t sealed was right there in the Prologue all along.
Well that’s enough. I love Tuesdays. :)//
@@@@@ 15 \\as others have mentioned, the injury is due to the TP coursing through the staff. Cleansing and Fain’s wound make the links.
As for Rand’s sword melting, I always thought this was due to the TP. And that the progression of the saa actually burn out not just his eyes, but his insides. So he is literally full of a fire burning through the TP, and the TP can destroy unbreakable objects made by the OP (c.f. cuendillar).
And as others have mentioned, Ishy is very proficient in TAR, probably less than Moghedien but still very skilled. \\
@@@@@30 With Moiraine walking over the walls, this is a classic example of Jordan hiding the truth due to character POV. The two rivers folk and the guards see Moiraine walking over the wall. But the gate is open. She literally walks through the gate it just appears that she steps over it. It’s a cool little section.
This is definitely one of my favourite endings. But then most of the books have my favourite endings! Damn fine series.
This is the culmination of the first two books, and even the recap gets me in the feels. This might be my favorite chapter in the entire series.
About the “when you wore flesh” just wait, I recall that getting expounded upon later.
@20 Isn’t Hawkwing’s discussion with the sniffer Hurin, not Ingtar?
I think Ingtar is dead and gone by the time the horn is sounded.
“ruined what he had accomplished because he was unfairly angry with a bunch of women”.
Knowing the Aes Sedai Hawkwing’s anger was probably not that unfair.
@49 – I think the implication is that Hawkwing’s //antagonistic feeilngs toward the Aes Sedai were caused by Compulsion.//
@19. mp1952
Very good explanation!
30. JimIII
Obviously, // Mat remembers her because she was his girlfriend in half his Portal Stone lives, and Min feels like she knows him because she made Rand tell her all the juicy bits of gossip each time his Ta’veren Technicolor Visions caught Mat with Tuon. Cadsuane told me she once tip-toed away from his door when she heard Min shouting “MATMATMATMATMAT” while Rand was begging her to stop.
Incidentally, Rand’s madness is actually not from the taint, but from Min forcing him to spy on Perrin during the Plotline of Doom ™, which is enough to drive anyone insane.
//
48. BigBoy57
Yup.
38. Jeremy M
15. Jeremy M
WoT congeals into hard fantasy to a certain extent, but Jordan (and Sanderson) always made sure to leave a few things open, to show how much of the world is still beyond our knowledge, and the knowledge of the characters. Examples are // Nakomi, lighting the pipe, Androl and Pevara’s using each other’s din/dar. // Regardless, there are lots of artifacts in TEOTW which cannot be properly explained using the mechanics introduced in later books. Some of it was retconned (// dreamshards //), with varying degrees of success. TGH has much less of this, and a lot of what we see in Falme can be attributed to the magical Horn, // which also pretty much ignores all the rules. For example, the Horn is never described as a ter’angreal, not even by Moiraine. I think//. In TDR // the main elements are the quick progress of Rand’s madness, and the effect of unshielded Forsaken dreams on entire cities //.
Incidentally, the link between Rand’s battle with Ba’alzamon and the battle vs. the Seanchan has a biblical parallel in Exodus 17:8-13:
@49:
Not to mention his // mind was being manipulated by Ishamael and the True Power. //
As far as @15, my opinion is the only thing that can’t be easily explained by later knowledge is the connection between the Rand and Ba’alzamon’s battle, and the battle on the ground. And how they appeared // simultaneously in the sky everywhere in the world. // As @51 said, it IS likely a reference to the Biblical account of the Hebrew battle with the Amalakites.
Most of it appears wonky because we are in Rand’s POV, and he still doesn’t know squat about the Power. The rest is a function of // T’a’R // being brought into the mortal realm in some fashion by the sounding of the Horn. Its important to note that even the Forsaken don’t know how everything works with // T’a’R // . I’ve only read // A Memory of Light // once, but it would be interesting to see if there are any parallels, and what might be gleaned from that, since its the only other time the // Horn gets sounded // .
@51:
The // “quick progression of Rand’s madness” // is extremely debatable. And I’ll do just that when we get there.
TL;DR – There are other things than the // Taint that can cause madness — like someone else invading your dreams every single night, and not allowing you to get any REM sleep // . Those reasons are given right in the same book. RJ wants us to think that // Rand was going mad from the taint // already, that’s why he puts the vast majority of the book in // Perrin’s POV //. But I don’t think it was his intention to actually // have Rand go mad from the Taint //, and then he changed his mind because he realized it was too soon. Its slight of hand and a narrative feint, and I believe it was intentional throughout TDR.
At what point in the books is it made explicit that //TP and OP// aren’t the same thing?
Note: message edited by moderator to white out potential spoiler.
@54:
Mods, the // TP // part is a spoiler. The // TP // isn’t even referred to until Book 6, I believe, @gomiller, but we know immediately that they aren’t the same thing. In Book 4 we find out that // Lanfear drilled the Bore searching for a substitute for sai’din and sai’dar that both men and women could channel the same // . But its not given a name, and we don’t realize what that is until book 6.
I just wanted to chime in and say that all of that makes sense, but more importantly at the moment, @51 and Mods, there is a accidental spoiler via // name choice // in the second part of your post.
I just wanted to say how much I enjoy both the re-read and the analysis, Sylas. While you haven’t been anywhere near 100% correct, you are MUCH more advanced in your analysis of the story than I was during my first read. Keep up the good work! This series has a certain momentum of it’s own, so the deeper in we get the more convoluted the stories will be, and the more excited the reaction for me. I look forward to taking this trip with you.
I also wanted to say how much I enjoy everyone else’s response. I mostly lurk myself, but I truly enjoy what the rest of you offer. I hope you are all enjoying this as much as I.
As has been stated by others, I have really come to look forward to Tuesdays so that I can catch the latest installment. Thanks!
@53 Anthony Perro: You might think that in The Dragon Reborn, //the vast majority of the book is in Perrin’s POV//, but that’s not the case. //The plurality leader for POV time in The Dragon Reborn is from Egwene, with 33.15%, to Perrin’s 31.40%. Mat gets 26.38%, and then there’s a smattering of others, with a bit of POV time for Nynaeve, Rand, and Pedron Niall, and then cameo POV’s from Jaichim Carridin, Siuan Sanche, and Verin.// The only //books where Perrin has the plurality of POV time are The Shadow Rising (during the Two Rivers campaign against the Whitecloaks and Slayer’s trollocs), and Towers of Midnight (where Sanderson tied up all of Perrin’s outstanding threads from the Plotline of Doom and all of his character’s emotional issues and whatnot, after he was basically absent from Towers of Midnight, resulting in the really sloppy timeline mess that so confused everybody about Tam al’Thor when that book came out).//
Over the course of the series, //the POV leaders per book are:
New Spring, Moiraine
The Eye of the World, Rand
The Great Hunt, Rand (this is the last time any POV character cracks 50% of a book)
The Dragon Reborn, Egwene (this is the last time any POV character cracks 30%)
The Shadow Rising, Perrin
The Fires of Heaven, Rand
Lord of Chaos, Rand
A Crown of Swords, Mat (first time no character cracks 20%)
Path of Daggers, Elayne
Winter’s Heart, Elayne
Crossroads of Twilight, Egwene
Knife of Dreams, Mat
The Gathering Storm, Egwene
Towers of Midnight, Perrin
A Memory of Light, Mat//
@58 // I don’t want to speak for Anthony but what I think he means is that we mostly follow Rand through Perrin’s point of view in this book rather than from Rands. The Mat and Egwene storylines are separate from what Rand is up to for the most part. //
I know I’m in a really tiny minority on this, but I don’t actually think the spoiler addressed in @33 is bad planning. I think it’s heartbreaking and fits all too well into the themes of the whole story.
53. Anthony Pero
Those are good points. This will be fun to think about more deeply during the next book.
56. Jeremy M
I think I understood your oblique reference, and corrected what I thought you were referring to. Hopefully, I got it right. Sharp eyes! :)
@60 – It’s not technically heartbreaking. //All three of them are together up until the beginning of book 4 and then, presumably, at the Field of Merrilor (or however it’s spelled). It’s just that we don’t see all 3 of them “on screen” at the same time. In other words, RJ or Brandon just never wrote a scene for all 3 of them together, even though they probably were together sometime off screen.//
@60,62 // I feel fairly confident Rand will at some point let them all (his close friends) know he is alive after the series. He just deserves a vacation first. One of post series things I picture Rand doing in his free time is going through all the terangreal the tower has collected and explaining what most of them do LOL //
@58:
You missed my point, or I didn’t articulate it well enough. I meant the vast majority of the // Rand-centered plot is in Perrin’s POV. We mostly find out what Rand has been up to through Perrins POV. This is to limit the amount of time we spend in Rand’s POV, so we can make the assumption he is succumbing to Taint madness. //
“But Rand is also acknowledging that death is a lighter burden than the duty the Dragon Reborn carries, and while I don’t think he wants to die, I do think he may be experiencing a little of the same relief Ingtar felt when he made the decision to sacrifice himself. I’ve never quite believed Ba’alzamon when he claimed that he could control Rand after he’s dead, and I don’t think Rand believes it, either. Thus, the death Rand expects will also be a release from the incredible burden of his duty and destiny as the Dragon Reborn.”
I’ve yet to finish the entire review and will comment further when I do, but the sentiment expressed in the last sentence above is incorrect because, at this moment of the story, Rand believed //he was fulfilling – not avoiding – his duty as the Dragon Reborn. Remember, here Rand fully believes Ba’alzamon is the Dark One. Thus, in sheathing the sword he is killing the Dark One and fulfilling his destiny.//
Note: message edited by moderator to white out potential spoiler.
Sorry for not whiting out!
@65 you need to white out at least part of your 2nd paragraph. That is information that Sylas doesn’t have yet!
self flagging for mods
Oh gosh, I didn’t know that. Thank you for the help.
@68:
I wouldn’t worry about it, its pretty borderline. The OP has // already figured out that Ba’alzamon isn’t the Dark One. //
Hah, I was going to say how adorable it was that //Sylas still thought it was the Dark One, but then he goes ahead and stumbles on the Ishamael connection. LOL.//
That signing FAQ is really interesting. I hadn’t realized that //Rand/the Dragon was also spun out in other ages in the same turning as a non-Dragon, but just some dude. But I would assume still ta’veren? Or maybe I did realize it – I know we discussed it here before – but didn’t realize there was a confirmation. I still would like to know more about other turnings and how it plays out. We can’t really trust Ishy’s word on this. But given that Artur says that sometimes they fought against, and sometimes they fought with each other, seems to imply that there were at least some differences.
But that also begs an interesting question. There’s also a question where she asks about who the Heroes follow. I thought in the end of the books (which would have been well after this singing FAQ) the Heroes basically say, yeah, even if the enemies blew it, we’d still always fight for the Dragon. But in the signing, he actually mentions a rift in the Pattern if the person blowing the horn was on a different side than the Dragon/banner. I wonder if that was an abandoned idea. And then that means I also wonder when Artur would have ben fighting against the Dragon, unless perhaps it was in one of the spokes where Rand was spun out as a non-Dragon.//
Hah, I was also thinking of that Bible story, although I think it’s kind of obscure so I don’t know if it was an intentional reference.
And yes, I love the irony of Artur Hawkwing fighting against the Seanchan. //Was there an authorial fiat that there was an offscreen meeting between Tuon and Artur Hawkwing after the Last Battle? Am I making that up?//
But Anthony’s question about Jesus/the Church is spot on, especially in these times :-/ Reminds me a bit of the Grand Inquisitor in the Brothers Karamazov.